Düngung von Nepenthes - Teil 2

[Andreas Wistuba]

vor einer Stunde schrieb BastianK:

Hallo in die Runde,

 

Ich bin seit einiger Zeit stiller Leser dieser und der vorangegangenen Diskussion und möchte mich bei allen und insbesondere bei Andreas für die sehr hilfreichen und ausführlichen Beiträge bedanken. Bei mir sind jetzt noch folgende Fragen offen geblieben:

 

1. Ich finde die beschriebene Stoßdüngung von Magnesium und Eisen interessant. Als Hobbygärtner mit nur ein paar wenigen Nepenthes finde ich es doch schwierig von der Blattfärbung auf einen Bedarf zu schließen,  da diese ja auch von der Belichhtungstärke und dem Alter des Blatts abhängt. Ich fände es super wenn ihr vielleicht zwei Beispielbilder von einem Blatt mit einem Mangel und vom selben Blatt nach der Kompensation des Mangels posten könntet.

 

2. Es wäre auch prima wenn Andreas noch beschreiben könnte welche Konzentration von Fetrilon sich als praktikabel erwiesen hat.Wird Eisen dann immer zusammen mit Magnesium verabreicht?

 

3. Andreas, ich hab deinen Ausführungen von 2015 entnommen dass du alle 2 bis 3 Wochen einmal mit reinem Wasser durchspülst. Hast du daran etwas geändert und wie viele Gießvorgänge mit mit Dünger versetztem Wasser führst du zwischen den Spülvorgängen durch? 

 

Viele Grüße 

 

Bastian 

 

Hallo Bastian,
 

ich dünge mit Hilfe zweier Dosatron Düngerdosierer, die in Reihe geschaltet sind. So kann man gleichzeitig zwei Lösungen zusetzen, die sich als Konzentrat in einem Tank nicht halten würden, weil es zu Ausfällungen käme.

Meistens:

Tank 1: Dünger* und Eisen-EDTA (Fetrilon)
Tank 2: MgSO4 x 7 H2O (Bittersalz)

Beide Lösungen sind so eingestellt, dass ich die Dosatron-Dosierer auf 0,2% bis 0,5% einstellen kann, einfach um möglichst selten ein neues Fass ansetzen zu müssen (=möglichst konzentriert nach Angaben des Dünger-Herstellers)

Das Fetrilon setze ich nach Herstellerangabe für Zierpflanzen zu (latenter Mangel): https://www.compo-expert.com/de-DE/produkte/fetrilon-13
Also eine End-Konzentration im Gießwasser von 0,005 bis 0,01%

Bittersalz stelle ich auf eine Konzentration von etwa 3 mM im Gießwasser ein.

 

Generell dünge ich eher nach Bauchgefühl.
Ich will schöne gesunde Pflanzen und z.B. jetzt kurz vor der Saison vielleicht auch noch einen kleinen Wachstums-Schub. Nicht mehr. Daher übertreibe ich es auch nicht. Den Platz habe ich auch gar nicht, die Pflanzen sollen möglichst lange eine verschickbare Größe haben. Und Carnivoren sind meistens am schönsten und farbigsten, wenn sie dezent hungrig sind 

Aber nicht verhungert!

Ich schwanke bei der Düngung zwischen 300 bis maximal (sehr selten!!!) 1000 Mikrosiemens Leitfähigkeit des Gießwassers. Meistens so 500-600 Mikrosiemens.

Es kann z.B. auch sein, dass ich einfach mal einen Eimer Fetrilon ans Dosatron klemme und Magnesium zuschalte, wenn mir das Grün nicht 100% gefällt und gar keinen Dünger im Fass habe.

Wie gesagt - mit viel Bauchgefühl.

Spülen ist wichtig!
Salze im Substrat mit denen die Pflanze nichts anfangen kann, machen m.E. nach nur Probleme. Deshalb mag ich auch keine Dauerdünger im Topf. Ich habe schon immer das Gefühl, dass es den Pflanzen, den Wurzeln und dem Substrat sehr gut tut, regelmäßig gespült zu werden. 

Mittlerweile dünge ich etwas stärker als früher und kürzer (wie oben geschrieben so mit 500-600 Mikrosiemens) und dann länge Spülphasen mache.
Früher habe ich oft 1-2 Wochen lang bei jedem Gießen mit sehr geringer Dosierung gedüngt - so um 250 Mikrosiemens und dann gespült.

*Dünger:
Zurzeit verwende ich ganz gerne Hakaphos Azerka oder Hakaphos Soft Elite.
Ab und zu schiebe ich ein Fass Universol 312R ein um die Pflanzen mit Calcium zu versorgen. Früher habe ich stattdessen ab und zu Calciumnitrat oder Calciumchlorid gegeben. Aber beim Universol 312R habe ich gleich einen vollwertigen Dünger im Fass.

Ich hoffe, das beantwortet die Fragen.

Viele Grüße

Andreas



 

Edited February 1, 2024 by Andreas Wistuba

[Beauze Menzies]

Kalium deficiency lower leafs

 

Magnesium deficiency lower leafs

Iron deficient on right, new leafs

 

It is important to remember many deficiencies occur together or just look like a light green and not unhealthy so easy to overlook

[JanG_]

Wow! Vielen Dank für die ganzen Informationen, die sich die letzten Tage in diesem Thread gesammelt haben, Andreas und Beauze! Da sind wirklich sehr viele hilfreiche und brauchbare Tipps dabei.

 

Mich würde das Thema pH-Wert, das Beauze angesprochen hat brennend interesserieren. Ich war bisher immer davon ausgegangen, dass ein niedriger pH Wert bei Nepenthes generell erstrebenswert ist. Geht es dabei ausschließlich um die schlechtere Nährstoffverfügbarkeit von Kalium, Calcium, etc und daraus resultierenden Mangelerscheinungen?

Gibt es ein erkennbares Schadbild zu einem zu niedrigen pH?

Könnte man den pH Wert mit regelmäßigen Kalk-Gaben regulieren, oder bekommen die Nepenthes irgendwann Probleme mit zu viel Calcium im Substrat?

 

Grüße Jan

[Beauze Menzies]

15 hours ago, JanG_ said:

Wow! Vielen Dank für die ganzen Informationen, die sich die letzten Tage in diesem Thread gesammelt haben, Andreas und Beauze! Da sind wirklich sehr viele hilfreiche und brauchbare Tipps dabei.

 

Mich würde das Thema pH-Wert, das Beauze angesprochen hat brennend interesserieren. Ich war bisher immer davon ausgegangen, dass ein niedriger pH Wert bei Nepenthes generell erstrebenswert ist. Geht es dabei ausschließlich um die schlechtere Nährstoffverfügbarkeit von Kalium, Calcium, etc und daraus resultierenden Mangelerscheinungen?

Gibt es ein erkennbares Schadbild zu einem zu niedrigen pH?

Könnte man den pH Wert mit regelmäßigen Kalk-Gaben regulieren, oder bekommen die Nepenthes irgendwann Probleme mit zu viel Calcium im Substrat?

 

Grüße Jan

Yes it is true they like it acidic but just in the PH 5 range. Anything below and you start to get many weird colors from Kalium or who know's what or root burn, especially is you fertilize. It happens a lot in Sphagnum which usually starts at PH 6-7 and drops to PH 3 in a couple months. BE uses ground water acidified with nitric acid to 5.5. 
 

I use dolomite lime in the soil to keep the PH up, if it is powdered it almost never raises it too high. It is safe considering campanulata, mapu, etc grow on limestone and has never given me toxicity.

There is some much more thorough concepts in this paper including the PH:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/8733640/paphiopedilum-culture-and-propagation-concepts-and-guidelines

[Andreas Wistuba]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Beauze Menzies:

Yes it is true they like it acidic but just in the PH 5 range. Anything below and you start to get many weird colors from Kalium or who know's what or root burn, especially is you fertilize. It happens a lot in Sphagnum which usually starts at PH 6-7 and drops to PH 3 in a couple months. BE uses ground water acidified with nitric acid to 5.5. 
 

I use dolomite lime in the soil to keep the PH up, if it is powdered it almost never raises it too high. It is safe considering campanulata, mapu, etc grow on limestone and has never given me toxicity.

There is some much more thorough concepts in this paper including the PH:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/8733640/paphiopedilum-culture-and-propagation-concepts-and-guidelines

Using Dolomite, you should also give most of Mg and Ca to the plants.
I used Dolomite when growing Amorphophallus some years back but never did on Nepenthes. Since I don't fertilize as heavily as you do , I never felt a need to do anything beyond occasional MgSO4 x 7 H2O or Calcium through fertilizer or Ca-Nitrate.
But you seem to fertilize a lot more and heavier than I do, so that might cause other issues that do not occur with my low EC-fertilizing. Frankly speaking, for me it's nice to keep plants for as long as possible in shippable size. So once they reached that size, I wish to keep them like that if possible.   

[JanG_]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Beauze Menzies:

I use dolomite lime in the soil to keep the PH up, if it is powdered it almost never raises it too high. It is safe considering campanulata, mapu, etc grow on limestone and has never given me toxicity.

There is some much more thorough concepts in this paper including the PH:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/8733640/paphiopedilum-culture-and-propagation-concepts-and-guidelines

Thank you so much! I just read the article and it contains a lot of helpfull new information!

I'll definitly give dolomite lime powder a try, since my Nepenthes grow in a self watering tray with life Sphagnum growing between the pods, acidifiying the water reservoir over time.

How much dolomite lime do you put in your Substrate and how long does it last?

It's kinda scary to put limestone in the substrate since it's considered bad, watering your plants with tap water, due to the lime content.

[Beauze Menzies]

Usually it is a spoonful of the powder dolomite per pot every couple months. For very large pots it is a handful. The pelletized dolomite can have a higher PH since it is heated in manufactoring so best to avoid that. 
 

For the live sphagnum, I think we often cultivate a different species than grows with wild Nepenthes, although very few photos. So they often do not like the higher PH as much, in that case you lift the live sphagnum topping up and put the lime underneath so it washes into the Nep's roots but avoids the live sphagnum. That often fixes that issue

[Uwe Mittrach]

Wie ich hier schon angemerkt hatte, hat Dr. Wolfgang Ermert in den letzten Jahren einen Pflanzendünger nach wissenschaftlichen Gesichtspunkten entwickelt und dazu mehrere Beiträge in der Orchideenzeitschrift "Orchideenzauber" veröffentlicht.

 

Dieser Dünger "Dr. Ermerts Profidünger Gold" enthält auch Ca und Mg und ist bereits von vielen Orchideenleuten getestet worden und wird positiv bewertet. Er scheint daher für kleinere Pflanzenbestände von Nepenthes gut geeignet zu sein.

 

Herr Ermert weist wiederholt darauf hin, dass CaCo3 gut für das aufkalken der Töpfe geeignet ist, da damit der meist viel zu saure Pflanzstoff etwas neutraliert wird.

Als Ca Quelle ist CaCo3 kaum geeignet, dafür gibt es Calcinit (Kalknitrat). 

 

Mehr Informationen zu diesem Thema gibt es hier zu lesen:

 

https://www.paphs.de/de/kultur/kalk-fuer-paphiopedilum

 

Paphiopedilen wachsen überwiegend terrestrisch und oftmals mit Nepenthes zusammen. 

Edited February 3, 2024 by Uwe Mittrach

[FannichtveganerPflanzen]

@Beauze Menzies, based on the statements in this chat you seem to use fertilizer quite generously. Have you used it on slow growing nepenthes as well? If so, does it have a effect on their growing speed or the size new leaves have?

 

I personally don't have any experience in doing that but i am considering using fertilizer in summer to push the plant a little bit as i expect bigger plants to be more resilient to unconfortable times --> not that i know this for a fact.

 

I will try to fertilize by feeding (using the plants trap) because i think this may be less risky in case of mistake in dosing it. --> Again not that i know it, please correct me if i am wrong about that too.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience

 

Robin

[Beauze Menzies]

On 2/8/2024 at 10:16 AM, FannichtveganerPflanzen said:

@Beauze Menzies, based on the statements in this chat you seem to use fertilizer quite generously. Have you used it on slow growing nepenthes as well? If so, does it have a effect on their growing speed or the size new leaves have?

 

I personally don't have any experience in doing that but i am considering using fertilizer in summer to push the plant a little bit as i expect bigger plants to be more resilient to unconfortable times --> not that i know this for a fact.

 

I will try to fertilize by feeding (using the plants trap) because i think this may be less risky in case of mistake in dosing it. --> Again not that i know it, please correct me if i am wrong about that too.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience

 

Robin

I have fertilizer it on all my plants with good success, it is true some species need slightly different fertilizers for fast growth but that is tiring to do. For plants that have not been fertilized you can get very impressive leaf jumps and after that normally they are always growing at a good speed although not always leaf jumping to such a huge degree. Usually there is never any size reductions and the plant is continually getting bigger with a good green color - NEVER any "sunburn." For something very slow like villosa, I have never grown it long term because I run a US nursery and must sell anything worth a dime otherwise I am stuck trying to unload hybrids, and it is well known that the nurseries here only resell plants and do not produce them due to multiple factors, time and money etc. One of the biggest issues with the very slow species is poor root growth, without active root tips they cannot absorb some nutrients well at all which causes slow growth. It is one reason why cuttings often turn pale during the rooting process. I believe there is a specific nutrient(s) that triggers rooting but which it is exactly I have never figured out. 
 

Its true larger plants are more resilient since they are often healthier which defends them from phytophthora (rot), and also the plant has more nutrient stores when soil supplies run low. I think the plants use more Nitrogen and potassium when it is hot. 

Yes the pitchers is much easier to not mess up, just a pitcher dies not much risk, however I think they will absorb some immobile nutrients like iron poorly that way. It seems to me that the true lowland species need more iron than HL (presumably because Fe is more available in peat in situ), veitchii and truncata + their hybrids need higher K, and the HLers generally need more Mg. 

 

It should be noted that Nepenthes (and orchids) fertilizer needs is more similar to rhododendrons and blueberries than vegetables. Remember, vireya grow with Nepenthes. Actually, since I grow both I know their needs are both a bit different but the comparison stands. We see this with Wistuba's recommendations for lots of iron - actually it was a friend who told me about Andreas using iron that made me start trying it and fixed a lot of my issues so am very thankful for that. Up until then I had experimented with every nutrient but iron since my leaf tests always came out as a consistent level of iron, as previously mentioned so I had refused to believe that was an issue. Back to the point, rhodos use ammonium/urea and do NOT like nitrate. The same is true also of Nepenthes, however they do use some nitrate and it helps stabilize the PH because ammonium can and will crash the PH without lime added so thats why a 50/50 mix of ammonium to nitrate is good. So again I repeat don't try the MSU fertilizers, they are all nitrate and it is also true in orchids prior to its "invention" there was a lot more great growers using urea fertilizers than there is now using MSU, but now of course we see more people posting plants than 20 years ago. To those who beg to differ, the only Nepenthes I've had test in leaf at 1000 ppm nitrate... was a dead nepenthes...

 

I do not know what fertilizers are sold in DE so cannot make a good recommendation. However something similar to a jack's 10-30-20 should work well for a continual fertilizer - the higher phosphate means the EC tests lower which is good and it buffers PH a bit. Also it is good for roots. For Calcium, carbonate works or you can maybe try bonemeal in the soil. Since they are less soluble they are safer in general. If the leaves "sunburn" and turn red after fertilizing then the Nitrogen is pushing the growth too much and causing a deficiency of another (that is not supplied in enough quantity). The red always equals slow and dwarfed growth, just look at peltata in cultivation versus in the wild with green leaves. 

 

Edited October 3, 2024 by Beauze Menzies

[Mark]

Hello everyone,

 

I am a total newbie in terms of fertilizing. Altough I am growing Nepenthes for almost two decades, but I was taught that you should not fertilize them... It seems I was taught wrong!

 

I was studying this and other related topics regarding to fertilizing. As this whole topic is quite new to me I have couple questions:
1. What is GH?

2. µS = mikrosiemens - I understand this is water conductivity. I see that you suggest around 300-1000µS (some of you even more). How do you measure it? Should I measure before and after adding fertilizers?

3. As my plants was never fertilized, should I start with lower amounts? 

 

Best Regards

Mark

[Marco Ebert]

Hello Mark,

 

> 1. What is GH?

 

Where are you reading this?

 

> How do you measure it? Should I measure before and after adding fertilizers?

 

There are measurement devices you can buy. Cheaper ones start from 30,00 € and should be fine for our hobbyist use case. Expensive and more exact ones cost a lot more. The biggest difference between them probably is the accuracy, but as long as they measure the difference between, let's say, 500µS and 600µS, I wouldn't really worry. For comparison: Professional devices measure in the range of 0,1µS or even more accurate.

 

It's probably a good idea to measure you're water before, but what's important is the absolute conductivity after adding the fertilizer.

 

> 3. As my plants was never fertilized, should I start with lower amounts? 

 

I don't think so, you should be able to start fertilizing right away. But as already mentioned multiple times here, it's important to flush the pots every now and then so you're not accumulating salts.

 

Regard

Marco

[Mark]

Hello Marco,

 

Thank you very much for answer.

 

I think I tried to absorb to much information at once and got something mixed up. I think GH was Gesamthärte. But I don't even know where exactly I read this. Maybe it was in some links.

 

As you suggested I will buy water conductivity meter and test my water sources. This will be quite interesting!

 

One more thing is on my mind - somewhere in this whole discussion I saw information that soil based on LFS will degrade much faster while fertilizing - is that correct? Also the living sphagnum could die from fertilizing?

 

Best Regards

Mark

[FannichtveganerPflanzen]

Am 8.2.2024 um 19:22 schrieb Beauze Menzies:

I have fertilizer it on all my plants with good success, it is true some species need slightly different fertilizers for fast growth but that is tiring to do. For plants that have not been fertilized you can get very impressive leaf jumps and after that normally they are always growing at a good speed although not always leaf jumping to such a huge degree. Usually there is never any size reductions and the plant is continually getting bigger with a good green color - NEVER any "sunburn." For something very slow like villosa, I have never grown it long term because I run a US nursery and must sell anything worth a dime otherwise I am stuck trying to unload crappy BE hybrids, and it is well known that the nurseries here only resell plants and do not produce them due to multiple factors, time and money etc. One of the biggest issues with the very slow species is poor root growth, without active root tips they cannot absorb some nutrients well at all which causes slow growth. It is one reason why cuttings often turn pale during the rooting process. I believe there is a specific nutrient(s) that triggers rooting but which it is exactly I have never figured out. 
 

Its true larger plants are more resilient since they are often healthier which defends them from phytophthora (rot), and also the plant has more nutrient stores when soil supplies run low. I think the plants use more Nitrogen and potassium when it is hot. 

Yes the pitchers is much easier to not mess up, just a pitcher dies not much risk, however I think they will absorb some immobile nutrients like iron poorly that way. It seems to me that the true lowland species need more iron than HL (presumably because Fe is more available in peat in situ), veitchii and truncata + their hybrids need higher K, and the HLers generally need more Mg. 

 

It should be noted that Nepenthes (and orchids) fertilizer needs is more similar to rhododendrons and blueberries than vegetables. Remember, vireya grow with Nepenthes. Actually, since I grow both I know their needs are both a bit different but the comparison stands. We see this with Wistuba's recommendations for lots of iron - actually it was a friend who told me about Andreas using iron that made me start trying it and fixed a lot of my issues so am very thankful for that. Up until then I had experimented with every nutrient but iron since my leaf tests always came out as a consistent level of iron, as previously mentioned so I had refused to believe that was an issue. Back to the point, rhodos use ammonium/urea and do NOT like nitrate. The same is true also of Nepenthes, however they do use some nitrate and it helps stabilize the PH because ammonium can and will crash the PH without lime added so thats why a 50/50 mix of ammonium to nitrate is good. So again I repeat don't try the MSU fertilizers, they are all nitrate and it is also true in orchids prior to its "invention" there was a lot more great growers using urea fertilizers than there is now using MSU, but now of course we see more people posting plants than 20 years ago. To those who beg to differ, the only Nepenthes I've had test in leaf at 1000 ppm nitrate... was a dead nepenthes...

 

I do not know what fertilizers are sold in DE so cannot make a good recommendation. However something similar to a jack's 10-30-20 should work well for a continual fertilizer - the higher phosphate means the EC tests lower which is good and it buffers PH a bit. Also it is good for roots. For Calcium, carbonate works or you can maybe try bonemeal in the soil. Since they are less soluble they are safer in general. If the leaves "sunburn" and turn red after fertilizing then the Nitrogen is pushing the growth too much and causing a deficiency of another (that is not supplied in enough quantity). The red always equals slow and dwarfed growth, just look at peltata in cultivation versus in the wild with green leaves. 

Lastly, in Xavier's paper he mentions the importance of Manganese. It is the reason why steno/rein grow like crap in cultivation yet thrive in the wild, even ventricosa's growth is vastly improved with its use. For those that struggle with those species it is really worth a try. https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/JARS/v54n3/v54n3-mcaleese.htm#:~:text=However%2C many rhododendrons and other,Rhododendrons need acid soil.

 

Thank you this is lots of information and made me also think about many more aspects.

As you seem to run a nursery you of course are dealing with harder conditions as you have to care about more plants and with higher requirements to efficiency

 

About the root growth, yes this makes absolute sense to me as i read that the root development is essential for the growth and size limits above ground, especially if it comes to the max height.

From what I often read is that people working with cuttlings add hormones to get the plants to grow roots faster to increase the chance for success. A quick google search for that named a hormone called "indole-3". --> Again this is a topic that is not in my set of expertise.

 

I personally wonder if this additive also works with established plants (that already have roots and sit in a pot) to grow more roots and faster and in the end effect a higher growth rate of the entire plant.

I also dont know if there is some risk for something going terribly wrong about that.

I wonder if anyone has made some experience in that.

 

Also that explaination about how the sunburn effect comes together is very helpful.

The only thing I have problems to understand why calcium carbonate should be added. From what i read everywhere in that forum is that we either should use either rain water or distilled water but not mains water for it exactly being poluted with that.

 

About the high effect on N  ventricosa: Based on what i read i wouldve expected the ventricosa to react very strong to fertilizer as it is a fast growing nepenthes. I personally would have expected fast growing plants to react stronger to effects of fertilizing as i expect them to exploit the ressources given more efficient as slow growing plants.

 

Best regards

 

Robin

 

[moskal]

Hi,

 

gH means total hardness and describes the total amount of calcium and magnesium.

The scaling of the gH is based on water hardness measurement via soap consumption, and now it gets difficult in English:
 

Zitat

 

Prinzip der Bestimmung mit Seifenlösung nach BOUTRON / BOUDET

Seifenanionen reagieren mit Ca2+ - / und Mg2+- Ionen zu unlöslicher Kalk- bzw.
Magnesiumseife ( weißer Niederschlag).  Diese Seifenverluste verhindern das Schäumen.
Sind alle Ca2+ - / und Mg2+- Ionen durch die Seife gebunden, bildet sich Schaum.
Über den Seifenverbrauch läßt sich die Ca2+ - / und Mg2+- Ionenmenge bestimmen
(= Gesamtwasserhärte).

 

The gH does not affect the pH.

 

Regards

Helmut

[Beauze Menzies]

On 2/9/2024 at 7:06 AM, Mark said:

One more thing is on my mind - somewhere in this whole discussion I saw information that soil based on LFS will degrade much faster while fertilizing - is that correct? Also the living sphagnum could die from fertilizing?

 

Best Regards

Mark

Hello Mark,

 

Yes since the fertilizer acidifies the sphagnum more, it often speeds up the decompostion of the media which should be avoided. Living sphagnum can die off depending on the fertilizer and dose since it is very porous but usually it will be fine if the lime is put under the live sphagnum and not on top of it. The Sphag prefer a very low PH it seems. 
 

10 hours ago, FannichtveganerPflanzen said:

 

Thank you this is lots of information and made me also think about many more aspects.

As you seem to run a nursery you of course are dealing with harder conditions as you have to care about more plants and with higher requirements to efficiency

 

About the root growth, yes this makes absolute sense to me as i read that the root development is essential for the growth and size limits above ground, especially if it comes to the max height.

From what I often read is that people working with cuttlings add hormones to get the plants to grow roots faster to increase the chance for success. A quick google search for that named a hormone called "indole-3". --> Again this is a topic that is not in my set of expertise.

 

I personally wonder if this additive also works with established plants (that already have roots and sit in a pot) to grow more roots and faster and in the end effect a higher growth rate of the entire plant.

I also dont know if there is some risk for something going terribly wrong about that.

I wonder if anyone has made some experience in that.

 

Also that explaination about how the sunburn effect comes together is very helpful.

The only thing I have problems to understand why calcium carbonate should be added. From what i read everywhere in that forum is that we either should use either rain water or distilled water but not mains water for it exactly being poluted with that.

 

About the high effect on N  ventricosa: Based on what i read i wouldve expected the ventricosa to react very strong to fertilizer as it is a fast growing nepenthes. I personally would have expected fast growing plants to react stronger to effects of fertilizing as i expect them to exploit the ressources given more efficient as slow growing plants.

 

Best regards

 

Robin

 

Robin,

From my understanding the hormones if used too much can cause genetic mutations which are often not visible but result in slow growth so typically best to use just for cuttings when needed. I think a lot of the rooting powders sold are a bit expired and don't always work well. 
 

The lime with fertilizer so far seems to be just fine. It has very poor solubility (hence why limestone is still found) so typically it only dissolves when exposed to acid and therefore buffers PH around 6. It is actually not very alkaline (technically it is but it is complicated since insoluble) unless it contains hydroxide contaminants. As for using pure water and not main tap water... well yes that is mysterious why that came about. I believe it is something that has been repeated over time with little trials, or the no-fertilizer story was expanded to include anything with ppm including mains, or the tap water contains sterilizing chlorine (different than the chloride plants use). Another option is that the Sphagnum does not like the higher PH often found in main water and therefore the decline of the sphagnum was seen as a foretelling of the Nepenthes. 
 

Indeed, the faster species grow a lot faster, vent, bosch, gracilis, etc and are much quicker to see benefits to experiments. The HL species can be a bit more demanding, burb for instance absorbs nutrients very poorly for mysterious reasons (cause it is ultramafic origin?..). Truncata I have a good size one now at 2 years 4 months from sowing... attached a photo. I think it can be faster although this was the fastest seedling of the batch.

 

VG,

Beauze

[Lukas H.]

Hallo zusammen, 

 

Ich habe nun mal mit einer 2mM (ca. 0.5g/L) Magensiumsulfat (Heptahydrat) Lösung erstmal meine Nepenthes/ Heliamphora gedüngt (Blatt & Giessanwendung). Aus Interessen habe ich ebenfalls noch den Leitwert bestimmt, was bei mir zu einem Wert von 420 μS führte bei einem Ausgangswert von 10 μS meines Osmosewassers. Aus den gezeigten Bildern in diesem Thread schätze ich mal, dass meine Pflanzen einen Mangel an Magnesium sowie Eisen aufweisen. Meine bisheriges Düngeprotokoll bestand darin ca. alle 1-2 Monate die meisten Kannen meiner Pflanzen mit Maxsea 16-16-16 Dünger zu füllen bei einem Leitwert um die 600 μS. Da meine Sammlung überschaubar ist und ich in der Vergangenheit Probleme mit Algenbildung auf dem Substrat hatte war dies die einfachste Lösung für mich. Die Pflanzen bilden bei mir stehts schöne Kannen aus und weisen immer mal wieder Blattsprünge auf, weshalb ich der helleren Ausfärbung meiner Blätter nie gross Beachtung geschenkt habe... Entsprechend ist es schön zu sehen, dass man hier durch diesen Thread doch noch etwas dazulernen kann . 

 

Eine Woche nach Mg-Anwendung konnte ich bisher noch keine visuellen Unterschiede durch die Düngung feststellen. Ich schätze mal, dass es bei einem über Jahre herbeigeführten latenten Mangel wohl doch noch ein wenig mehr Zeit und Dünger Bedarf um diesen auszugleichen. Ich werde jedoch vorest wieder eine Zeit lang mit Osmosewasser giessen/ spühlen. Leider lässt sich das grosszügige Spühlen in einem Growtent ohne Bodenauslass nicht so gut realisieren wie in einem Gewächshaus. Gegebenenfalls behalte ich mal den Leitwert des Spühlwassers im Auge um hier eine grobe Abschätzung zu machen. Als nächstes werde ich dann wohl noch die zusätzliche Eisendüngung ergänzen. Wenn ich das richtig gelesen habe, handelt es sich gemäss der Produktbeschreibung von Fetrilon® 13 lediglich um Fe-EDTA welches auch in kleinere Mengen erhätlich wäre für den Hobbybedarf. 

 

Die dargestellten Bilder zeigen die Pflanzen bei gleichen Kameraeinstellung vor und eine Woche nach der Behandlung. 

Für weitere Inputs bin ich natürlich stehts offen.

 

Viele Grüsse

Lukas

 

Nepenthes hamata x campanulata

 

Nepenthes spathulata x edwardsiana

 

Nepenthes flava x edwardsiana

 

Nepenthes robcantleyi x clipeata

 

 

 

[Mark]

Thank you very much for answer: Moskal - about gH and Beauze Menzies - about LFS + fertilizing!

 

Do you think that kind of meter would be alright to measure water conductivity:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/331787948268?epid=151258208&hash=item4d401a50ec:g:D5kAAOSwxBNejDeg&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8AiK27KP4IRTgeuWTot%2FPcMvzfqBgusHvErBAfLoskTasiNL9xhMRwpEaNHuGLEe%2F27mNKATRWAWorcnPjRU7XoU53LNcTq5T2pDTOStCDNhbeKXBvxqL1rty%2BfhZp06dW%2BJNOK8RzpcRnD5caQ0VSSROypqvjk3h2MItk9EYCeq%2BFi0R7o8b2aYRrk3sfmO2DFg6NZZy403Tza1caOEXd8DUFH1byTSd5WdmOnVHTCTwvq%2BzQ0NuLV4eS%2FWsGcZznYP8q1kwYm6ccNdq7D7n86EEITQnEtorc0Hh9pMf%2BXvBT8rHwKxGZFfRm6b%2BjX0Zg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR57qws-zYw

 

If not, could you suggest other?

[Lukas Volkmer]

Hi Mark, 

 

you can find a TDS meter much cheaper (around 5-10€), e.g. on amazon. I use the following and for hobby purposes it serves enough. 

https://www.amazon.de/Trinkwasser-Wasserqualität-Temperatur-Fischteich-Schwimmbad/dp/B0BXNQBMLY/ref=asc_df_B0BXNQBMLY/?tag=googshopde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=650977603676&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12826398722219287510&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9041578&hvtargid=pla-2193518533827&psc=1&mcid=47ca2a1b176d3d3ea48e109449fe6ca8&th=1&psc=1

 

Best 

Lukas

[Marco Ebert]

Hello,

 

well, no matter how much they cost, I'd especially take care of them being waterproof. I had the cheaper one you, @Lukas Volkmer, posted in the past and it broke quite fast, probably due to water. So you either take care of getting it into touch with water or get a more expensive one which is water proof.

 

Kind regards

Marco

[FannichtveganerPflanzen]

Hallo Zusammen

 

Ich habe gerade heute im Buch "Karnivoren Biologie und Kultur Fleischfressender Pflanzen", das Kapitel Nährwert und Beute gelesen. Ein Kapitel, welches ich, denke ich früher sträflich vernachlässigt habe.

Ich denke dass dieses ganze Thema auch beim Thema Düngung von Interesse sein könnte da damit identifiziert werden kann was eine Pflanze mittels Karnivorie aufnehmen kann und was anderweitig zugeführt werden muss.

Darin steht etwas interessantes zu den Sarracenien, nämlich dass diese, obwohl Beutetiere einiges an Mineralien bieten würden, nur Stickstoff und Phosphor aufnehmen allerdings kaum Mineralien (Aussage nach Christensen 1976 nicht zitiert).

Für Utricularia und Triphyophyllum hingegen extrahieren auch Magnesium und Kalium aus der Beute (Aussage nach Sorrenson u. Jackson 1968; Green et al. 1979, nicht zitiert).

 

Ich bin kein Biologe oder Botaniker, habe nur die Aussage gelesen und so wiedergegeben wie ich sie verstanden habe.

 

Leider steht darin nichts zum Thema was die Nepenthes so aus der Beute zieht, bzw. Welche Nährstoffe über die Kannen konsumiert werden können.

 

Hat hier jemand genauere Kenntnisse darüber?

 

VG Robin

[moskal]

Hi Mark,

 

I also use the cheapest one.

 

And if you want to calculate the dosage, here is an online calculator:

 

https://www.flowgrow.de/db/calculator/magnesium?language=en_GB

https://www.flowgrow.de/db/calculator/fertilizer?language=en_GB

 

Regards, Helmut

 

 

[Beauze Menzies]

I have never tested it, but I believe they absorb mainly N and P via the pitchers and can absorb some other nutrients like Mg. A lot of the micros I think are much easier for them to absorb via the roots since the soils are often ultramafic. 
 

Would not be difficult to get a water test done on the pitcher fluid though especially if fertilized... 

[Timo L]

Servus, 

Wollte einmal meine "kurze Erfahrung" mit den hier genannten Düngern teilen. 

Ich benutze den jetzt seit ein paar Wochen und kann folgendes bei meinen Pflanzen beobachten. 

Die Pflanzen die länger bei mir sind haben den meisten Fortschritt gemacht. 

N. x Predator

N. Truncata hlr

[olivier marthaler]

Am 1.2.2024 um 19:49 schrieb Andreas Wistuba:

 

Hallo Bastian,
 

ich dünge mit Hilfe zweier Dosatron Düngerdosierer, die in Reihe geschaltet sind. So kann man gleichzeitig zwei Lösungen zusetzen, die sich als Konzentrat in einem Tank nicht halten würden, weil es zu Ausfällungen käme.

Meistens:

Tank 1: Dünger* und Eisen-EDTA (Fetrilon)
Tank 2: MgSO4 x 7 H2O (Bittersalz)

Beide Lösungen sind so eingestellt, dass ich die Dosatron-Dosierer auf 0,2% bis 0,5% einstellen kann, einfach um möglichst selten ein neues Fass ansetzen zu müssen (=möglichst konzentriert nach Angaben des Dünger-Herstellers)

Das Fetrilon setze ich nach Herstellerangabe für Zierpflanzen zu (latenter Mangel): https://www.compo-expert.com/de-DE/produkte/fetrilon-13
Also eine End-Konzentration im Gießwasser von 0,005 bis 0,01%

Bittersalz stelle ich auf eine Konzentration von etwa 3 mM im Gießwasser ein.

 

Generell dünge ich eher nach Bauchgefühl.
Ich will schöne gesunde Pflanzen und z.B. jetzt kurz vor der Saison vielleicht auch noch einen kleinen Wachstums-Schub. Nicht mehr. Daher übertreibe ich es auch nicht. Den Platz habe ich auch gar nicht, die Pflanzen sollen möglichst lange eine verschickbare Größe haben. Und Carnivoren sind meistens am schönsten und farbigsten, wenn sie dezent hungrig sind 

Aber nicht verhungert!

Ich schwanke bei der Düngung zwischen 300 bis maximal (sehr selten!!!) 1000 Mikrosiemens Leitfähigkeit des Gießwassers. Meistens so 500-600 Mikrosiemens.

Es kann z.B. auch sein, dass ich einfach mal einen Eimer Fetrilon ans Dosatron klemme und Magnesium zuschalte, wenn mir das Grün nicht 100% gefällt und gar keinen Dünger im Fass habe.

Wie gesagt - mit viel Bauchgefühl.

Spülen ist wichtig!
Salze im Substrat mit denen die Pflanze nichts anfangen kann, machen m.E. nach nur Probleme. Deshalb mag ich auch keine Dauerdünger im Topf. Ich habe schon immer das Gefühl, dass es den Pflanzen, den Wurzeln und dem Substrat sehr gut tut, regelmäßig gespült zu werden. 

Mittlerweile dünge ich etwas stärker als früher und kürzer (wie oben geschrieben so mit 500-600 Mikrosiemens) und dann länge Spülphasen mache.
Früher habe ich oft 1-2 Wochen lang bei jedem Gießen mit sehr geringer Dosierung gedüngt - so um 250 Mikrosiemens und dann gespült.

*Dünger:
Zurzeit verwende ich ganz gerne Hakaphos Azerka oder Hakaphos Soft Elite.
Ab und zu schiebe ich ein Fass Universol 312R ein um die Pflanzen mit Calcium zu versorgen. Früher habe ich stattdessen ab und zu Calciumnitrat oder Calciumchlorid gegeben. Aber beim Universol 312R habe ich gleich einen vollwertigen Dünger im Fass.

Ich hoffe, das beantwortet die Fragen.

Viele Grüße

Andreas



 

 

Hallo Andreas,

 

Ich werde Hakaphon versuchen. Welche Dosierung würdest du sagen, es ist am besten?

 

Schöne Ferien

 

OL